IDPA Jan. 18th, 2015

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IDPA Jan. 18th, 2015
CDP Champion: Randy Hood
ESP Champion : Mark Barr
SSP Champion: Gilbert Sandler
SSR Champion: Charlie Severance
Overall Winner: Mark Barr
High Lady: Remmi Sandler
High Veteran: Phill Osbourn
High Senior: Mark Barr
High Super Senior: Randy Hood
High Law: Aaron Moe
Most Accurate: Tim Ilian
Stages:

Just a reminder - Memberships are due. In order to shoot at the reduced rate, please bring your forms and dues to register at the match. The next IDPA match will be Sunday, January 18th Gates will open up approximately 0700 for stage designers and those desiring to help. Registration starts around 0815, new shooters to the range should be signed in no later than 0830, registration ends at 0845, shooters meeting about 0900 and hammers down following shortly thereafter. As usual for the winter... make sure you check the status before you head out to the range. The Long range forecast is for possible wet weather... we DO have dry cleaner bags for targets. cheeky

Stage Designers This Month
Bay 1 Marie Ilian | Bay 2 Charlie Severance | Bay 3 Mark Barr
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Great turnout on a pretty

Great turnout on a pretty drab gray day for the first regular match of the year. Think most had a pretty good time... Though muttering was overheard about Mark being banned from designing anymore stages. :-)

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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New shooters galore!  I think

New shooters galore!  I think there were about 6. The ones on my squad got the hang of it and showed very good safety. They all seemed to have fun. No match DQs, despite the "Mark" stages. 

I will hand the match score sheets over to Brian Gonsalves Tuesday and we should see results posted some time around mid week.   Sorry about the delay

Did anyone post video on YouTube?

Mark Barr

J Beem
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Joined: Sep. 6th, 2013
I was one of the new shooters

I was one of the new shooters.  I put some gopro video up on youtube.  Ill definitely try and make it back out next month.

http://youtu.be/C5swSk34I2Y

http://youtu.be/h5lUcc2_4vA

http://youtu.be/7EztLvwlrbk

http://youtu.be/Jl-5DCrWt4k

 

 

 

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treis
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J you did a great job. I

J you did a great job. It looked like you had a ton of fun. Nice vids. I'm looking forward to seeing you your next to the range.

Tony Reis

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Great video! Thanks Jared.

Great video! Thanks Jared. Outstanding job for your first idpa match. With that form, I predict you will move up quickly in the overall standings. 

Mark Barr

Craig Nunn
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Nice video's and good

Nice video's and good shooting.  Welocome to IDPA. It is always good to have new shooters.

I did notice a rule violation in the videos.  Did anyone else see the procedural penalty in all 4 videos?  I am not pointing this out as a knock on the shooter or the SO.  As an SO it is a very easy one to miss. I am sure I have missed the same issue when SOing and it is easy to Monday morning QB video.  With new shooters the SO is primarily focused (and should be) on safety

Again not a knock on anyone just something I noticed when I watched the videos.

Craig

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Fun stages

Fun stages

Video Embed: 

Christopher W.Peplow

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Oh darn... I ran dry in the

Oh darn... I ran dry in the open, hahaha

Video Embed: 

Christopher W.Peplow

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Ahhh... yes. A good bit of

Ahhh... yes. A good bit of discussion on this topic, if memory serves. ;-)

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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Hahaha, I could not find a

Hahaha, I could not find a single mention of round dumping in the current rule book. Who knows, maybe that will change March 1st with the new rule book setting in place.

Christopher W.Peplow

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I believe that someone

I believe that someone mentioned something along those lines, ayuh.

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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[quote=chrispeplow]

[quote=chrispeplow]

Oh darn... I ran dry in the open, hahaha

[/quote]

Maybe........... lol

No problem dumping rounds with the current rulebook (could change, but I doubt it).  However, it's hard to tell from the camera angle but the argument may be made by an SSO (ASO) that you stooped behind cover to fire that last round???  

My suggestion would be, count better!  haha!

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I know it was pretty close.

I know it was pretty close. But I did not have to lean out around the wall to make the shot. And if you look closely at my left foot it is still moving "into cover" after I was dry. But point taken, learn to count. Hahaha.

 

 

Christopher W.Peplow

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Craig, are you referring to

Craig, are you referring to him only starting with 10 rounds in his Glock 34? It's legal in the sport as long as he is consistent with it throughout the entire match.

Christopher W.Peplow

Craig Nunn
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Yes he did not start at

Yes he did not start at division capacity.  I think the rule says you can be lower if your mags have a lower number of rounds.  And then you have to use that capacity (can't change to different mags) for the whole match. I don't think it is a choice. I have never seen 9 round mags for a G34.  My guess is that being a new shooter he just did not know.
 

Craig

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It took me a second to figure

It took me a second to figure it out. I kept looking for finger calls and out of cover. Hahaha

Christopher W.Peplow

J Beem
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I aappreciatethe positive

I appreciate the positive input from you guys. I am however confused about not being loaded to division capacity. I was loaded with full 10rnd magazines.

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We should have had you top off 10+1 in the chamber. A lot of guys with glocks have high cap mags, so they start with 11 in the magazine when they come up to the start position. I think the SOs figured this was happening, I know I did when I ran you.

Craig you are 100% right. But would that constitute a penalty, or did the SO allow him to start in an incorrect starting position allowing him a re-shoot? Of course if a re-shoot is possible at the time of discovery.

Either way he was a first time shooter learning the game. Now he knows, and knowing is half the battle. Good shooting J.

Christopher W.Peplow

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I usually ask if they have

I usually ask if they have real mags when I do not see 'em top off.

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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Hello All,

Hello All,

Welcome Jared!

Here's the rules your looking for:

3.14. Firearms and magazines must always be loaded to the shooter’s division capacity, unless otherwise specified by the stage description.
3.14.1. Firearms and magazines manufactured such that they cannot be loaded to the division capacity may still be used as long as they are loaded to their maximum capacity and meet all other criteria for that division. See section 8.1.2. for complete magazine loading details.

8.1.2. Magazine Loading
8.1.2.1. All magazines must be loaded to division capacity at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:
8.1.2.2. If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match.
8.1.2.3. The CoF description may require reduced magazine loading.
8.1.2.4. In SSR and ESR, the shooter must load the revolver and all loading devices with the same number of rounds throughout the match unless the above loading exceptions apply.
8.1.3. Division Capacity
8.1.3.1. SSP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.2. ESP – 10 rounds
8.1.3.3. CDP – 8 rounds
8.1.3.4. SSR – 6 rounds
8.1.3.5. ESR – 6 rounds
8.1.3.6. In SSP, ESP, and CDP, the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

Since the Glock mags hold 10 rounds, the shooter is required to load 10+1.  

Here's an example where things may be different.  Chris and I both shoot ESP with 1911's at times.  Chris' 9mm mags will hold 10 rounds, he must load 10+1.  My .40 mags only hold 9 rounds, so I must load 9+1.  He could use 9 round mags to load 9+1, but would have to to use the same mags/capacity for the entire match.  He couldn't just decide to use 9 rounds in his 10 round mags, even if he did so for the entire match. However, he could have only one 9 round mag and then it would be ok to load the others to 9. (8.1.2.2) lol

Sorry I missed to match!  It was torture to be in New Orleans!  

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[quote=chrispeplow]

[quote=chrispeplow]

Craig you are 100% right. But would that constitute a penalty, or did the SO allow him to start in an incorrect starting position allowing him a re-shoot? Of course if a re-shoot is possible at the time of discovery.

[/quote]

Good question, to which there is no hard and fast answer!  Here's the rules:

2.4. IDPA Match Official (Joint Safety Officer Responsibilities)
2.4.3.3. Verify the shooter is in the correct starting position for the CoF (e.g., hands up, hands down, cover garment on/off, etc.).

3.17. If an SO determines that a shooter was allowed to start in an incorrect start position, a reshoot is required and no penalty is assessed.

And clarification (no help):  Rule 3.17. If an SO determines that a shooter was allowed to start in an incorrect start position, a reshoot is required and no penalty is assessed. Question: When can a shooter request a reshoot when a stage is started in an incorrect start position? Answer: When a stage is started in an incorrect start position and the shooter notices but the SO does not notice, the shooter must request a reshoot immediately following the holster command and prior to the scoring of targets.

So, the big question is, what falls under "etc" in this part of it:  (e.g., hands up, hands down, cover garment on/off, etc.)

Here's an argument.  If the COF states under "start position"  "Standing facing down range at P1, loaded to division capacity, hands relaxed at side"  and the SO started the shooter facing up-range, seated or with their hands up it would be a re-shoot, why not if they were not "loaded to division capacity"?  It's all part of the "start position" in the COF.

Others will say, it's not the SO responsibility to tell the shooter to load the gun.  I could argue that it is according to the rule as written.  You could argue the rule in poorly written ( and you's be right ) but the way it's written there is an opening.  

Thoughts......

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Thinkin' you just might have

Thinkin' you just might have covered all the bases. This was a combination of new shooter and fairly new SOs on an easy rule violation to miss.

Personally, I believe it IS included in the 'start position', even if not stated in the COF description, by rule; and that it is the shooter's rsponsibilty to ask for the reshoot. At Tier 1, we're here to learn and have fun.... give 'em another go...no matter who points it out. :-)

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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"Start position"... hmmm..

"Start position"... hmmm.. The key word is POSITION.  Merrium-Webster dictionary defines position as:

"the place where someone or something is in relation to other people or things".  In my humble opinion, position applies to where the shooter is standing and the location/position of his/her body.  That includes any specified hand positions, orientation up range or down range, etc.  If they intended "start position" to include magazine properly loaded, or spare mags properly loaded, they would have used the phrase "start condition".

I think the wording is sufficiently specific and a clarification is all that is required to clear this issue up.

They've already clarified that start position includes vest and hearing/eye protection on.  My vote is that properly loaded weapon and spare mags should be the shooter's responsibility.

There!  I feel much better now!

Mark Barr

Craig Nunn
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I had no idea I would create

I had no idea I would create this much discussion.  I agree with Mark and Charlie.  It is the shooters responsibility to properly load the weapon.  But, I also agree that at club matches we are all there to have fun and learn.  I would give a reshoot to a new or inexperienced shooter if it was caught during the stage.  Let new shooters learn and give it another go.  Hopefully as Charlie said it is caught at the start. I try do ask the shooter if they have "standard" capacity mags if they don't top off.  The learning part is the biggest reason I posted my observation.  If it were a sanctioned match or an experienced shooter I would asses the PE.

Craig

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Great discussion. Both

Great discussion. Both opinions can be convincingly  argued.  How about this final thought.  If the proper loading of magazines is the RO's responsibility, where does it stop?  Should the proper tucking in of the shirt be included in the interest of safety? How about turning the hat backwards when the stage has a prone shooting position?  smiley Gad zukes!

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Sorry Mark... it is covered

Sorry Mark... it is covered under the "...etc". Much as concealment required. Neither of which are need to be included in the written COF, because BY RULE they are assumed to be required unless otherwise stated. Hence, if a reshoot for no concealment on a stage can be considered an improper start, then a reshoot for a less than division capacity must be considered the same.

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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Results posted!  Sorry for

Results posted!  Sorry for the delay!  Converting from paper to practiscore took longer than I  thought it would!  

Please le me know if you find any errors.  I didn't get a sign-in sheet so many are missing IDPA numbers, but think I have the divisions and classifications correct.

Brian

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I thinks it's great we are

I thinks it's great we are having the discussion!  We have an awesome website that Ty has put 100's of hours into and I'm glad to see the forum being used.  As Craig said it's about learning and this forum can be a great tool!  I'm glad to see new members using it!

On the "position" topic I could argue both ways!  As my buddy Mark points out the definition of "position" I wonder how concealment fits it to that hard fast definition?  You could say IDPA added concealment as part of the rule, but didn't add in verifying the gun is loaded.  But what falls under "ETC"?  This is where the rule book fails us.  What is included in "ETC" as it's used in this rule is only an opinion!  

And while everyone is entitled to their opinion it doesn't make it a rule!  

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Ahyup... interpretation is

Ahyup... interpretation is the realm of the Match Director, nicht wahr?

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

Shannon Cunha
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Dammit, missed my first "top

Dammit, missed my first "top ten" finish by one spot. Great match, thanks to all involved.

 

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Wow! So proud everyone

Wow! So proud everyone covered everything. I could add "if IDPA considers a concealment garment a postilion and then includes ect. to the list of positions examples then position includes anything the MD's interpretation makes it".but I wont because it has already been covered. My only advise to anyone reading this is if you want a reshoot, don't go back to your bag and discus it with others then come up to an SO later in the day to request a reshoot. Request it immediately at the unload and show clear command. If denied, let the SO score it then take your case up the ladder in accordance ot the current rules. If requested immediately the MD may overrule the SO.  If you wait the MD's hands may be tied. 

"Unnecessarily restrictive engagement requirements by default is the hallmark of a lazy or flat out terrible stage designer." ~ unknown

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Here are some numbers:

Here are some numbers:

Total Points Down - 1377
Procedural Penalties - 36
Failures To Neutralize - 12
Hits on Non-Threats - 8

By stage (could not separate FTN/HNT):
Stg 1 - 347 PD / 12 PE / 0 FTN-HNT
Stg 2 - 92 PD / 0 PE / 2 FTN-HNT
Stg 3 - 379 PD / 16 PE / 11 FTN-HNT
Stg 4 - 238 PD / 2 PE / 5 FTN-HNT
Stg 5 - 71 PD / 6 PE / 0 FTN-HNT
Stg 6 - 249 PD / 0 PE / 2 FTN-HNT

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC

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That stage 3 was a toughy....

That stage 3 was a toughy..... 

But FUN!

Mark Barr

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The new rule book clarifies, 

3.14.1 If an SO determines that a shooter was allowed to start in an incorrect start position (at the time the “Standby” command was given,) a reshoot is required and no penalty is assessed. Note: This rule does not apply to equipment start condition (loaded with correct number of rounds, etc.)

Christopher W.Peplow

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Not until 01MAR15. :-)

Not until 01MAR15. :-)

The ability to shoot straight is that part of national security which affects the individual more than any other. - Merritt "Red Mike" Edson; CMOH-USMC